Are The Legends Set To Return?

[Carl]

Rumours have been rife for a while now, that the one of the worlds most successful song writing and production teams, Stock Aitken Waterman, are set to work together once again as a trio after splitting in 1991; Following Mike Stock's announcement that after an almost 11 year rift between them, he and Pete Waterman are back on speaking terms, and planning to work together, along with Matt Aitken, (who's absense from the music scene, has been noted by many!)

It is suggested that they will produce a special album, to commemorate their 21 years in the industry, by working on brand new material for some of their acts of yesteryear, Kylie being one and recording some of their classic anthems with some of todays pop acts!

Further credence has been given to this rumour, when recently, a full page message was placed by Mike, Matt and Pete in Music Week, to pay tribute to Kylie's outstanding career and amazing success.


(Image courtesy of http://hitfactoryforum.com)

[Bananadrama]

I am in two minds about this to be honest. Obviously, a part of me would really embrace the trio working together again and bringing back the glory days of pop, but the other side of me says that it wouldn't work. Often, it's better to remember the glory days - in this case what a monumental achievement the boys made in the late eighties. I know that pop really needs re-energising, but I haven't seen evidence in Mike or Pete's work over the last few years that suggest they (and Matt) are the people to do it. What do you think?

[Carl]

Mate,

I happen to totally agree with you.

From a nostalgic perspective, I'd love nothing more than to see a brand new record at number one in the charts, carrying the now illustrious credit, Written, Produced & Arranged by Stock Aitken Waterman!

However, it has to be considered, as is the case with ABBA for example, that SAW are from a byegone era, where the industry was a very different place. Mike Stock said in his book, that the spontaneity is no longer prevalent in the charts. They wrote and recorded Jason Donovan's "Too Many Broken Hearts" in January 1989, by the first week of March it was sitting at number 1. That is impossible to even conceive nower days, and from my own experience, you need a good 6 months of post-promotion, and indeed to have the support of a lot more people than just the record label, before you even consider breaking the charts, or a distributor will consider marketing and selling your product!

So I'm excited about a pending reunion, but also a little cautious as to the merits! Think of the Dirty Den scenario; One of the all time top 80's soap characters, who everyone wanted to return, yet when 13 years later he did, the panache of the character had died, and he simply hasn't worked. Will this be same if SAW are to make a serious come back? Sadly, I think so!

[Bananadrama]

I think that the msot appropriate reunion would be to see them put out a retrospective greatest hits album, perhaps even look at getting a tv special made and letting the fans relive the glory days. None of this, working with new artists. Do we really need to see some of todays "talents" murdering songs that we love? I can't really think of any current artists who have put out a version of a SAW classic that does it justice - even when people like Kelly Liorenna did "This Time" it was produced in a sterile, passionless way that made it seem totally unconnected with the original.
So, enough of this SAW reforming and taking on Busted for the top stop (after all, is there really any merit in having a number one single in the UK charts these days when you only have to sell 5 copies to get there?), lets remember them as they were - the most consistently excellent pop production team of te eighties.

[Carl]

Again, I'm in total agreement with you. I don't doubt for a second that SAW could produce an album of new greats, but as you say the 'industry' lacks the talent to be able to give life to the songs. To most of the artists today, the actual concept of singing bequeaths them! The added talent of putting emotion and feeling into somebody else's lyrics doesn't even make part of the equation anymore!

The Kelly Llorenna track, is a very good example of producers not actually understanding the mechanics of the songs that they are covering. There just isn't any sentiment or emotion in the vocal delivery, and this is synonymous with all of the recent SAW covers, IMO.

I think most SAW fans would appreciate an album full of their unreleased material, as you an I both know, the Bananarama vaulted tracks, for example, are just screaming to have the cobwebs dusted off them and be heard in their full stereo sound! And perhaps to see them, well Mike Stock, write another album for Kylie, if not for anything else, then for old times sake.

[Bananadrama]

You've hit the proverbial nail no the head - sentiment and emotion. For me, it's not about simply having a great voice, it's about having a voice that you can believe in. Kylie doesn't have a voice that you'd ever proclaim to be a great one, adn far better voices have failed where Kylie has succeeded, but what she does have is a delivery that works and that makes people buy into her. In Pete Waterman's biography he stated that todays pop stars and their producers simply ignore the formula you need to have a good song - good song, good production, good artist and good marketing. It's simply not enough to put out a good song these days, it's an industry where the business mechanics mean as much as the actual song and the artist.
I get sick to the back teeth of seeing these identical looking/sounding groups releasing the same drivel that you've forgotten about 5 minutes later. There is so much money thrown at some of these projects that I can't help but despair that they haven't invested it more wisely. In the sixties, Motown (who were clearly the business model that SAW emelated) used to care about the warmth of the sound and the production and telling a story with their lyrics - the clapping at the beginning of "Where Did Our Love Go" was actually made by clapping together 2 blocks of wood in a toilet! Yet, it worked! Forget budget and get back to grass roots and think before you release songs!

[Carl]

Mate,

I'm gonna enjoy this discussion! It seems very much as you and I are both singing from the same sheet on this one.

I think that the perfect example of just how bad pop music has become, is the "Record Of The year" show!
It said it all when my brother, who's younger than me, but not a pop music fan, asked, "Why are Busted singing twice?" They wasn't! It was McFly! I just laughed, as it's so pathetic that the people who sign these acts, lack the imagination and foresight to take the gamble and present the audience with something different!

They don't sing, they just make a hideous noise! The best place to pluck a 'real' singer from, someone who will inject character, emotion, passion and spark into a track, is from the theatre!

I scoffed when Simon Cowell, the maestro of the cover song and infinite current purveyor of bland pop dross, turned down a female vocalist who was currently working in 'The Lion King' stage musical!! That girl sang her a-cappella audition piece with sincerity, warmth and feeling, and was pretty too, and they turned her down!! Total madness! Especially when they put Rowetta through, who whilst able to belt out a number, was only able to do that! She sang with about as much subtlety as Lion ready to mate! And whilst there is talent in repeating musical notes in time via your vocal chords, the real talent is the person who can do that, whilst grasping the emotion of the song and delivering that, so the audience, actually feel the words coming from the singers mouth, but more so believe them!

In truth, anyone can do karaoke, which is really what the X Factor is, a glorified karaoke show, and that's what the contestants are- glorified karaoke singers! There was only one true talent there, that just needed to be nurtured and that was Cassie.

As for Kylie, again, bud, smack on! Not the greatest singer, but she sure as hell can make a song her own! You only have to compare her version of "Turn It Into Love" to Hazell Dean's, and that will say it all! Her delivery on that song was so heartfelt, you actually believed that it really was about her! Another example is "Better The Devil You Know", there is no comparison between hers and Steps'! She played up to every single one of those lines in that song! Steps, again just karaoke!

[Bananadrama]

Although it's not what you want from this forum (just 2 people discussing something), it does at least mean we can say what we think!
For me, a song is about believing in the lyrics and also the performance, bot hthe visual, and more importantly the vocal delivery. I make no excuses for being a HUGE Diana Ross fan, and for me she is the ultimate pop star. Here is a woman who has been (relatively) at the top fo her game for decades and who knows how to pick a song that seems to come from the heart and sing it with some conviction. You only have to listen to her singing "Touch Me In The Morning" or "It's My Turn" to hear real emotion and personal involvement. Sure, the Arethas and the Patti's can belt out songs harder and with more volume and they are technically "better" singers, but I dare anyone to see Diana Ross live, singing "If We Hold on Together" with only a spotlight on her and singing acappella, and say she's not SUPREMEMLY talented (pun intended!).
It's all well and good singing in tune and getting the basics of the production right, but it's about the personal touch and the nuances that make a song special.
This is so true of these reality shows - the Gareths and the David Sneddons can sing, I can't take that away from them, but do you actually BELIEVE they mean what they're singing? The only person to stem from this I really rate is Will Young - I think he's a lovely, down to earth and above all else passionate young man who knows how to make a song his own. For me, "Leave Right Now" was the best song of last year by a MILE - it' sone of those timeless songs that you'll still be hearing on the radio in 10 years time and will still know all the words to. Some people knock William for having an irritating voice, but to me it's unique and honest, too adjectives you can't apply to most of the wannabees in the charts right now.

[Carl]

Well, of course for a forum to be successful, you need an abundance of members, but to be honest, I'd rather have quality than quantity. (See I can say that whilst there's only two of us in the discussion!) Then again, I'd probably say it if there was 20! hahahaha!!! You know me!

Again, I totally agree with you. Singing the song is just one part of being a true entertainer. Performing it is another!

I think that the problem with someone like Gareth Gates, is that whilst he has the natural ability, that ability hasn't been nurtured, so he comes across as bland and unwholesome in his performance. I was working with a singer, who on the surface had a fairly average delivery.

Whilst the music producer was programming all the instrument sequences, I was working on the vocal arrangement with the singer, and was really pushing him to find the song. I explained line by line what the message of the song was, and for him to become the person in the words. To imagine that was him, and how he'd feel in that situation. Eventually, he got it, and by refining the deliverance of the lines, gave a highly emotive and passionate delivery, and sounded absolutely amazing.

All he had needed was for someone to spend an hour or so just working on the arrangement and how it was to be projected to attain the maximum impact of the writers lyrics! Until then all he'd had was some producer stand him in front of a mic, hand him the lyrics and told him to sing what was written! Two takes he was done, the producer auto tuned the vocal, mixed it and it was finished! Bland beyond bland! and the synonymous way in which most producers now seem to work, because half the time they themselves don't know the song! They just programme what they think they hear and be done with it.

The orchestration, even digital, element has gone! No one can be bothered anymore! I was lucky to be working with a music producer, who was open to my ideas, and was prepared to follow my guidance in not to just programme a bank of tracks, but to add another level of subtle instrumentation, to bridge the vocal and main instrumental track together.

Sadly, the singer, went to someone, who doesn't have the vigour in which to understand a true song, and the final recording reverted back to the stone cold emotionless drivel that we've all become so previously accustomed to! Apparently, this is what is now deemed to be "commercial"! I emphatically beg to differ!

As for Diana, she's an artist that's all encompassing! "I We Hold On Together", is one of my all time favourites.